Speaker 1: 0:00

Hola, hola, welcome to another episode of the Money Chisme podcast. Joining me today is Rakeem Sabri, who has been a leading voice in addressing the financial stress and insecurity that you know our communities deal with. Rakeem is an award-winning financial therapist, accredited financial counselor, speaker and author of Financially Irresponsible Rakeem. Thank you so much for joining me today.

Speaker 2: 0:30

I am super excited to be here. Thank you for having me.

Speaker 1: 0:33

I actually was not aware that financial therapy was a thing, especially financial trauma, which totally makes sense, but it wasn't something that I knew about. So I kind of want to start there and for those that who are unfamiliar, like how I was, can you explain what you know financial therapy is and what made you get into that specialization? I guess?

Speaker 2: 1:01

Yeah, great question. So financial therapy is an emerging field, I guess. Yeah, great question. So financial therapy is an emerging field. Hasn't been around for a long time but certainly necessary in the way that we kind of decompress from the financial stresses, the financial anxiety, the financial trauma, a lot of the psychological issues that might surface that inevitably will surface when it comes to navigating our finances, issues that might surface that inevitably will surface when it comes to navigating our finances.

Speaker 2: 1:32

And so the science of financial therapy, if we can call it that, is blending, at least through the lens of the Financial Therapy Association. So I'll circle back to that in a second. But through the lens of the Financial Therapy Association, financial therapy is blending mental health competencies with financial planning competencies to create this new interdisciplinary field of financial therapy. So you have a lot of people coming in from either a base discipline that is financial, like myself, or a base discipline that is in the mental health field, so licensed marriage and family therapists, licensed clinical social workers, licensed master social workers. So we're really just kind of blending these two disciplines. Now there are financial therapists that practice outside of the confines of what I've just explained to you, right?

Speaker 2: 2:15

So they're not coming from a financial planning background.

Speaker 2: 2:17

They're not coming from a mental health background.

Speaker 2: 2:20

Maybe they're blending some of the somatic healing methods or energy healing methods with an understanding of the issues that people experience when it comes to navigating their finances.

Speaker 2: 2:34

Ultimately, I think the goal across the board for financial therapists is to help people feel better about their money right, help people in their relationship with money out their money right, how people can their relationship with money, and so, through that formalized lens, as I shared with you, financial therapy through the Financial Therapy Association is a newer space.

Speaker 2: 2:55

We're experiencing a little bit of a boom and when I say we, I include myself in that because the financial therapy industry as a whole is getting a lot of attention through traditional media, through social media. We're starting to have more conversations about the impacts of this financial stress on our decision making, on our behavior, on what survival is. I think it's a little bit more nuanced than I'm kind of using that as in a not rhetorical way, but as kind of like a joke. It's a little bit more nuanced than the traditional conversations around financial literacy, because so much of the financial services industry as a whole, the financial education industry, has said you just need to learn how to budget and save and build credit and you know all the right things and you'll be successful.

Speaker 2: 3:51

What I've seen in my experience in working with individuals on the wealth spectrum is that nobody is immune to financial stress, to financial anxiety, to financial trauma. Right, you could have money and still experience these things, you, you could have money and still experience these things. You could not have money and still experience these things. And the educational piece is definitely important and it helps, but that's not where it ends, um and so when I talk to members of the BIPOC community at large, right, um, black americans, uh, latinos I talk about some of the systemic challenges that we in our communities have experienced. Talk about intersectionality. I talk about financial trauma and what that looks like, because so much of our experience has been gaslight. Right, we're being told that you have to work hard and if you do all the right things, you're going to be successful, but then we go out and we try to do those things and we run into these walls that that exists within you know some of the systemic racism and marginalization that our peoples have experienced. So I don't see a lot of people talking about that.

Speaker 2: 5:02

Certainly, I think more are talking about it these days, but when I got started it was really from a place of I don't want to call it ignorance, but experience. I didn't have formal training in personal finance. I didn't have formal training in financial therapy or mental health, and so I just knew that I grew up in an environment and atmosphere where we didn't have a lot of money. There were a lot of taboos about talking about money. Um, when I got into financial services back in 2011, I had to learn very quickly the products and the services and how to have those conversations with individuals and then I'm like, wow, like there's so much I didn't know and I want to apply that to myself and I want to share that with my community.

Speaker 2: 5:49

But I started to drink the Kool-Aid, right? I think a lot of us end up doing that when we first discover financial.

Speaker 1: 5:57

Oh for sure, I definitely was one.

Speaker 2: 6:00

The rich dad, poor dad and the day we start regurgitating that information. But their experience is not our experience.

Speaker 2: 6:08

The privilege is not our privilege.

Speaker 2: 6:11

And so when I started to kind of recognize that that was true of my experience and I had achieved some measure of success financially, but there was still something like, there was still something I was running into I said, okay, I need to talk about this more through a lens of generational trauma.

Speaker 2: 6:32

And so I like to tell people that financial therapy found me and I found financial therapy and you know we've been speaking the same language. But now that there's this union between what my experience was and what education, I have to be able to talk about this intelligently and not from a perspective of it's unfortunate. But you know, some people push back and they're like, oh, you know, you're, especially in today's political climate, you're being a victim or you know, like, pull yourself up by your bootstraps or you know that happened so long ago. And so being able to connect history and the science of neurology and the science of our nervous system activation, the science of epigenetics and how you know those traumas in the past do continue to show up and impact us today makes I don't want to say makes my point more valid, but it allows for me to talk from an academic lens on what exactly is happening.

Speaker 1: 7:34

I did fall into that at the beginning when I first started learning. It was definitely rich dad, poor dad. Every time that somebody mentions that that book now, it's like, well, yeah, but like I could see them slowly falling into that trap too and I try to like pull them back and whatever. Um, but the same thing with uh like that journey of realizing, uh, that our, our journeys are kind of like a little bit unique. We don't have all that privilege and stuff. And then when you again, when you try to talk about it, they agree.

Speaker 1: 8:09

I agree that they say that, oh, you're just like the victim. And you have those people that are so hesitant and I see it in my own family when I try to bring something up. Or there was a book that they read, because I'm in like a family group and we read books and we like review and there was a few that rubbed them the wrong way because it was them thinking that they're a victim. But I'm like it's not trying to paint you as a victim, it's giving you reasons why, something like why we're so behind and we need to be able to recognize so we could make change. We can't keep just ignoring it and uh, trying to not be the victim and you know, not, uh, fix some of these things.

Speaker 1: 8:57

And, um, yeah, I've, I've had my own journey with that. And still, matter of fact, fact this, this year I read another book and it opened my eyes to other things, of why I felt a certain like, I guess, resistance, because here is more individualistic, and so I'm like, but all these things I have to think about, you know that I have to take care of my parents and all that stuff and I was like, why is it? Like it's, it's, I'm having this disconnect. And it's because, um, when I read this book, it was that I had to recognize that my culture is collective and so then I had to start going through that journey of trying to merge that, uh, those two. So, yeah, it's a, it's a journey for sure yeah, I um.

Speaker 2: 9:48

I've been talking a lot lately this year about what you just described right the intersexuality that we experience with culture and how we define culture right. A lot of times, when we hear the word culture, we think ethnicity, we think nationality, we think language, we think, maybe religion where we come from?

Speaker 2: 10:09

right, what are the values that our family has introduced to us that we are deciding to carry on? And that's not an inaccurate representation of culture? I just think that it's an incomplete one. Right, because we navigate so many different cultures throughout our lives, particularly in the United States. Right we? We navigate so many different cultures throughout our lives, particularly in the United States. Right, we navigate school culture, we navigate work culture, we navigate our social cultures, we navigate consumerism as a culture. Right, where we see Thanksgiving and Christmas and Valentine's Day and Halloween and all the holidays we have to go spend money. Why is that? Right?

Speaker 2: 10:46

So all of those things, or rather all of those cultures and intersecting points, influence what our personal value systems are, influence what our personal goals are financially, cause some confusion, especially within individuals who are kind of standing in the doorway of those two cultures.

Speaker 2: 11:08

Right, this individualistic, consumer-driven, in response to capitalism culture that we experience here in the United States, where we have to worry about health care, we have to worry about retirement, we have to worry about you know, what does the day-to-day survival look like for ourselves? But also we want to be there for our family, we want to take care of our parents, our grandparents, we want to take care of our children, we want to give them a better life. Many instances um, whether that be through access to education, whether that be through access to housing, um, and so a lot of pressure on individuals, um, right now, what I'm saying is most of that is being experienced by uh, sandwich generation, uh, which is the gen xers, um, but also, you know, some of the millennials as well, right, because our parents are getting older and we're having to have for sure about.

Speaker 2: 11:59

You know, do you have your stuff in order?

Speaker 2: 12:01

because oh my god, I a mess right yes um, and so those things are normal, um, our reaction to those things are normal, right, it is not normal for us to uh be navigating those different worlds and not feel, um anxious or not be worried because, um, although I believe in abundance, I I acknowledge the reality that some people's lives, some people's lived experiences, are one of scarcity. You're wondering, well, I'm only getting this much money, how am I going to make this much money? Split between all of these different goals and priorities, and sometimes that can be a lot harder.

Speaker 2: 12:43

For individuals who are viewed by their family as somebody who has kind of escaped the uh, the confines of what poverty may look like, or what low income may look like, or what, um, a lack of access to education may look like. There's a lot more pressure on that individual to um, to kind of step up and provide. And through many conversations I realized that, although a lot of that pressure is external, some of that pressure we internalize, um it comes from, and we're just saying we need to be that person, not because we've told that, but because that's, you know, more aligned with our values. So, um, I appreciate that you shared that part of your journey. I think it's something that a lot of people can relate to. Certainly something that I can relate to and um I think, as we continue to have this discussion um we'll, we'll be able to kind of pinpoint some of the ways to help um navigate those challenges I definitely feel that of that pressure of like parents.

Speaker 1: 13:46

I think my dad hits 65 this year and my mom probably a few more years, so I am already like I lose sleep over, like, because I am like, and I mean because, like, the middle of the night is when, like, as like, I'm laying down in bed, that's when my brain like switches to, like, start thinking about stuff and I and I will go through like a whole plan of things I need to do, and so then, next thing, you know, it's like two in the morning or one in the morning, and so I'm always constantly thinking of it, of what steps I need to take so I can make sure that I'm able to take care of them.

Speaker 1: 14:28

So I definitely am one of the millennials that is feeling that pressure and stressing out about it, but I'm learning to, like you know, deal with it, just like with, during my personal finance journey, having to deal with, like, the financial anxiety still going through that and all that, realizing that some of the stuff is, you know, financial trauma. And so, for those that may be beginning their journey or may not even realize that that's something you kind of mentioned it a little bit earlier, but what you know. Does financial trauma like, look like or manifest in someone?

Speaker 2: 15:12

Yeah, I'll give you a definition. This is this is a rockin definition, so it's not a clinical definition or one that is widely accepted by the greater financial therapy community at large. But I define financial trauma as any instance observed or experienced that has a negative impact on the way you view, interact with or believe about money, right. And so how that's different than maybe the way that financial trauma is discussed in some of the more clinical or academic communities is that financial trauma is usually described as an experience that you had first person, right. So if you have experienced poverty, if you have experienced an eviction or a layoff, if you are having a reaction to some flashpoint financial situation, a lot of times that would be considered financial trauma. Through clinical lens, I argue that we have experiential financial trauma and we have observed financial trauma, right. So if you and if your parents go through financial hardship, that was financial trauma, right. I argue that we are all experiencing some aspect of financial trauma at some point throughout our lives.

Speaker 2: 16:41

And that that financial trauma that we're experiencing is very often a reaction to capitalism. Right, we have to get up to go to work. We have to, you know, be a cog in the machine, so to speak, until we're not right. Some people like they, make wealth building their goal from a very young age or as soon as they're able to become aware, and then everything becomes about money.

Speaker 2: 17:07

Right, how do I get more, how do I buy more assets, how do I control more Right, how do I grow my net worth, et cetera. Some of that pressure can show up as financial trauma, because then you have to wrestle with the limiting beliefs that you might have. You have to wrestle with. We talked about this word, victimhood earlier.

Speaker 1: 17:27

Mm, hmm.

Speaker 2: 17:27

Circle back to that because, as I was listening to you react to my statement, I was like, well, hold up, you know, hold on a second. We're trying so hard and when I say we, I'm talking about our communities we're trying so hard not to fall into, you know this, this broad stroke that those of us who don't look like us might paint us and saying that we're victims. But we are victims, right, we are victims. And so there's a difference between operating through victimhood and recognizing that we are victims. Right, we are victims of oppression, we are victims of systemic exclusion, we are victims of direct financial abuses by these financial institutions.

Speaker 2: 18:19

Our ancestors have been lied to, our ancestors have been stolen from right, have been taken advantage, and so when we operate in the space of well, I don't want to be a victim, I don't want to be a victim, cool, like we don't have to, you know, just roll over and say, oh well, you know this happened and there's nothing I could do about it. Like we don't have to, you know, just roll over and say, oh well, you know this happened and there's nothing I could do about it. But we can't acknowledge that our communities have been victimized, continue to be victimized and grow and that us fighting against the acknowledgement of that really just kind of like we're sweeping it under the rug, we're pretending that it doesn't exist and that's not a way for us to approach healing. So back to this idea of financial trauma. Um, when we navigate these experiences and we are gaslit to believe that we're not victims right that we were and we're trying to put the put the pieces together.

Speaker 2: 19:15

As we talk about, like, reading books, like rich dad, poor dad, or reading, um, some of the dave ramsey books and repeating some of the rhetoric that they talk about for their audience, um, we are doing harm not only to ourselves but to our communities, because, because we're ignoring, it's like if you uh got stabbed or got shot I hate to use these, you know very graphic examples but you, you got injured and you're bleeding, Like you're not even at a place where you you know wrapped it up and it's not, it's not an issue anymore.

Speaker 2: 19:46

But you're walking around and like, no, I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm going to go, I'm going to run this race Right. Anybody who's anybody will be like hold on a second, like you need to take care of this wound, stop, you need to recover. Like you should not be going into this race. We don't have the luxury of doing that Right. And so I think a lot of the trauma, too, comes from not acknowledging the hurt and whether it showed up in our family line hurt. And whether it showed up in our family line, whether it was us directly experiencing this trauma, our parents, our grandparents. Because that trauma does travel through our DNA. That's been proven, and it impacts the way that our genes are expressed. That's been proven. And so when we try to sweep it under the rug or pretend that it didn't happen, or we don't want to be associated with that pain because of shame or guilt or fear or embarrassment, we're actually allowing, we're getting into the race while we're still wounded. We're not allowed to heal. You know, within the realm of financial therapy, but certainly, I think, extends beyond. That is acknowledging the wound. Unfortunately, helping people recognize. You know what? The race is still going on. We don't have the luxury of being able to sit out, but at least we're not going to sit here and we're going to. You know, we're not going to bleed all over everybody while we're running this race. Right, we're going to acknowledge that those obstacles exist and we're going to say, right, we're going to acknowledge that those obstacles exist and we're going to say, okay, boom, I see this obstacle. Now how do I navigate around this? Because people around complaining all day are not going to do anything. But I do think that you know, there's a case to be made, and it's a delicate kind of middle spot. There's a case to be made for saying, hey, this happened. I'm conscious of the fact that this happened, I'm going to keep going, but I'm not going to pretend that this didn't happen. And this is fill in the blank, right?

Speaker 2: 21:41

Whatever, the oppressive experience that is relatively recent that our communities have been experiencing or continue to experience is relating to how we show up and interact with our money. Why is there mistrust in the financial systems or financial institutions? That's not by accident. Why are communities underbanked or unbanked? That's not by accident. Why are we considered to have low levels of financial literacy? Yeah, right.

Speaker 2: 22:20

And so when we start looking at, you know, these variables and addressing these variables and say, ok, yes, we can use more financial education, but are we in a position, from a wealth gap perspective, to execute on these variables? Right, for every dollar that a white man or woman makes, is a black man, black woman, latino man, latino woman making? Right, it's not, it's not. And so how do we, you know, how do we shine a light on those um instances while also being productive? Right, while also moving forward, while also encouraging our community to be productive and move forward?

Speaker 2: 22:54

Um, and, like I said, I don't see that as being, um, a huge talking point in the world of personal finance. Yeah, I believe that's changed a little bit more recently as I see more people talk about their experiences. Um, but, like you said, that whole nuance of culture and the individualism versus a communal culture, that's a big deal. That's going to have a huge impact on how you view and value money, how you establish goals around your money and, ultimately, how you execute on those goals related to your family.

Speaker 1: 23:31

I love that example of the race. Your family, I love that example of the race. Victims have replaced it with survivor, you know, like domestic violence, survivor or stuff like that. So because victim is seen as something really negative and you're right, like they're trying to run this race and they're hurt, and because they don't want to like be the victim or see, or because we get told to pull ourselves by the bootstraps that there is no, you know, systemic racism or nothing going on, that there's absolutely no reason why we're struggling financially or whatever. So then we force ourselves to just like ignore this gaping wound and try to keep pushing forward, but we keep falling further and further behind from the other racers and wondering why you know we're struggling.

Speaker 1: 24:23

Well, before I always saw it as like something that I experienced and that's why I have this financial trauma.

Speaker 1: 24:31

But when you, when you said that, I did reflect on, you know, sometimes your family will say, well, I don't know why you want to do that, because so-and-so, they lost money in this or so-and-so.

Speaker 1: 24:42

So it's true, that's that trauma. Right there, they it didn't happen to them, but it happened to, like a cousin or a brother, and so now they're scared and I see that, even with investing in all that stuff, that's one of the the things that people are kind of scared of, because, you know, I'm a real estate investor and I try to get our communities to get more involved in that and one of that's one of the things that they see that somebody you know had a bad experience for tenant not paying or whatever, like it didn't happen to them or anything, but it keeps that, that resistance there. So for someone that is going through this, like how, I guess, how do you help? I think you mentioned it a little bit earlier, but can you elaborate a little bit on, like, how do you help someone that is going through this financial trauma, to help them, like one recognize it and you know start, you know working through it and overcoming it?

Speaker 2: 25:46

Yeah, great question. I think the first part is talking about it. I love and hate this answer because it sounds so simple. Right, but it's you know people will shy away from having these conversations, and so I go into a lot of these interactions, understanding that there's a huge emotional charge associated with allowing somebody to stop and feel that pain in the moment, right. Allowing somebody to say to stop and feel that pain in the moment, right. Allowing somebody to say, man, I've been hurting right.

Speaker 2: 26:18

Oftentimes, when I'm having these conversations, people do end up getting very emotional. They start crying and it's just like, wow, like somebody sees me, somebody like is going to. Let me talk about what's going on.

Speaker 2: 26:37

Second part I think is super important for anybody who is in the position of a financial educator or a coach or, you know, financial leader is helping the individuals that they're working with recognize their safety in that moment, right? So the way that our bodies and our minds are hardwired to react to threats, whether they be a perceived threat or an actual threat, and who gets to determine whether or not as perceived or actual is you know, the person is very often aligned with this nervous system reaction that we're familiar with as fight or flight, right, flight, right. Uh. And so when you know, using financial therapy terms, when we look, when we think about money specifically, if there is something that we are worried about, like a bill and whether or not we're able to pay it, what is the first reaction that people have to that bill yeah, they get stressed out and anxiety and and fear maybe, maybe they won't open their mail, right, maybe?

Speaker 2: 27:39

oh, yeah, yeah, avoidance so people go into these avoidant behaviors because it's fight or flight. Right, I'm not. I don't have the means to fight it, so I'm running away. Right, I'm putting my head in the sand. Um, if so, digging deeper, if your experience as a child was observing that behavior take place, right, maybe you don't become avoidant, but you become vigilant. You say I do not want this to be my experience, so I'm going to do everything that I can to make sure that this is not my experience. I'm going to make a lot of money.

Speaker 2: 28:18

I'm going to save a lot of money. I'm not going to put it in investments. I'm not going to let myself go out to eat. I'm not going to let myself to have. I'm not going to enjoy my money because I can't enjoy it, because I need to make sure that I have it just in case something bad happens. Right, sure that I have it just in case something bad happens, right.

Speaker 2: 28:36

So a lot of people operate um, high income earners operate from this place of vigilance that says, well, I'm doing all the right things, right, I'm checking off the boxes, I'm saving, I'm budgeting, I'm investing, I'm making sure that I don't have any debt, I'm not using any credit cards, et cetera, et cetera. But what is the quality of their lived experience? Are they using money as money was designed to be used right, as a tool? Some people would argue yes. Some people would argue no, right.

Speaker 2: 29:01

So financial hoarding is a thing. People will hoard their money with the intentions of insulating themselves from this reality. That may or may not ever come, and so that could be a reaction to what we observe as children, right? So there's data that says that, by the age of seven, we have pretty much solidified our beliefs around money. If you think about what it is that we observed up to the age of seven, I believe we start being able to pay attention between three and seven, but let's just say at the age of seven. I believe we start being able to pay attention between three and seven, but let's just say at the age of seven. What is it that we saw, that we internalized, that we heard our parents talking about that. We were told directly, when it comes to navigating our finances or when it comes to navigating money as a whole, that we have held on to until we got to the age of income earning that we're not operating from right.

Speaker 2: 29:59

What if? Your lived experience at seven was both your parents combined income was $45,000, but, you get out of college and you go on your first job.

Speaker 2: 30:11

You're making $120,000 dollars, but your mind is still stuck at what you were experiencing at seven. So you're reacting to the world at 120 000 per year, in the same way that you were reacting to the world or the way that you observed your parents reacting to the world. With that combined 45. You know, let let's just take, you know, cause I'm sure there's going to be economists and math, uh, mathematicians. Let's take inflation out of the equation, right, because $45,000 last. You know however, many years ago, 30 years ago, yeah.

Speaker 2: 30:48

It's different than you know what $120,000 or whatever it looks like today but you're making significantly more. That was a big wake up call for me when I realized that I was making annually what my parents were making combined as one person no children and I'm trying to figure out, like how do I make all the all the things work Right, like yeah imagine a world right where I have three kids. By the time I'm you know.

Speaker 2: 31:17

Whatever this age was, it's called 29, 30 and I'm making this much money, but they did and they had to figure it out. So, um, people are operating from, you know, the position of their memory, uh, from their position of this perceived threat of poverty or whatever the thing that they're afraid of. And so I think it's super important to help people realize, like, hold on a second. Like where are you today? What do your expenses look like? What does your income look like? Do you have a place to live? Do you have hot water? Do you have heat? Do you have electricity? Do you have food?

Speaker 2: 31:53

Like, are you good today? All right, cool, take a breath. Let's celebrate that, because a lot of people are not. And then, where do you want to be tomorrow? Right, and so helping them come up with a plan in some kind of financial planning or financial counseling work is huge, because you can address those roadblocks that psychologically surface as you're through these interactions to say, hey, okay, let's again, let's take a stop, let's breathe, let's be mindful of who we are today. And I think that not everybody has to become a financial therapist, not everybody has to, uh, go through those you know experiences. But everybody can say where are you right now? Like, are you good?

Speaker 2: 32:44

yeah is there a threat like is there a tiger in the room? Show me the tiger right, yeah, yeah you don't have to fight or flight right now you can plan. So what does planning look like? And then the second part to that for me and my process is helping people to acknowledge their decisions in the past, right, so people come. When I work with people, some of them may go in and say you know, I was really stupid, I was really dumb, I can't believe I did this. I was really dumb, I can't believe.

Speaker 1: 33:13

I did this.

Speaker 2: 33:13

I was like no, we're not going to do that Right, we're going to draw a line in the sand. We're going to say that the decisions that you made before this line were decisions that you made because you felt like those were the best decisions for you financially, given the information that you had access to.

Speaker 1: 33:30

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 33:30

Now you have access to more information, now can make better decisions. We're going to draw a line in the sand. We're going to do away with the shame, the guilt, the fear, the anxiety, and we're going to plan for what tomorrow looks like now, once we get to this place. Now we got to have accountability right. We can't just excuse past behavior and say you can go and do whatever you want to do. You're right, like because so now we have to. Now we have to have a plan. You're telling me this is what your goal is. All right, cool.

Speaker 2: 34:01

When do you want to accomplish this goal? By? What are you going to do this week to move you closer towards that goal? What are you going to do next week, next month, next year? What are these behaviors that you're going to consistently demonstrate to move you closer towards your goal? Because you can't want to do this, because I want you to do this. You have to want to do this because you want to do it, because it's aligned with your values, because it's aligned with your goals, and if your values and your goals are misaligned, then you're going to keep running in the circle, right? And so the other part of that conversation is and I find this to be the case more frequently with members of the BIPOC community is what are the values that you want? So this is a scary part of the conversation for a lot of people. What are the values that you want to bring forward, that you inherited into your future, and what are the values that you want to leave behind? Right, because it's up to you.

Speaker 2: 34:59

Yeah you get to decide what that looks like, and sometimes it's an uncomfortable conversation because, well, our family's always done it this way, our family's communal, our family for me to do this culturally, this is expected. Uh, religiously or spiritually, this is expected and ultimately, I have to remind the individual that they're the captain of their ship, right?

Speaker 2: 35:23

yeah, not saying you know, throw family and the values and the religion, everything away. But you have to decide for you which. Which way do you want to go? Right? You can't stand in this doorway anymore where you're trying to please you know two different masters because it won't work, you'll burn yourself out, um, and so, like I said, I find that to be um more frequently a conversation with members of our communities.

Speaker 2: 35:51

um, because of what you talked about, as far as that inclination to be more communal, and you can do that for your family, you can support your community, but not to the detriment of your own safety, not where you put on your own life vest or safety mask. Right, you have to have something to pour from. You can't pour from an empty cup.

Speaker 2: 36:20

And a lot of people struggle with that and they're well-meaning, good people. That is a sign right of that goodness that you have, that you know those values that were instilled in you. I think that it's important to help people recognize that they can hold on to those things while still being of value to their community, whether that be through modeling the behavior, whether that be through teaching um, you know, giving the education around finances whether that be through creating a family fund where you say, hey, I'm going to give X amount per month or X amount per year After that, like, I can't give anymore this is my country or whether that looks like the type of work that they end up doing.

Speaker 2: 37:06

I was having a conversation with a friend yesterday actually, who was talking about going into the nursing field, and they were like I hate it. Yeah, I hate it, but you know, I know that.

Speaker 2: 37:22

It almost went down that path. Yeah, I know it's a secure job, I know that I always have to. I'm you know it's high paying, so I'm gonna do it. And I was like, is that cultural? Like, will you encourage by your parents to do that kind of work? And I know there are different um cultural groups, groups who, like they'll say, hey, no, I don't care what you want to do, you're going to be a doctor yeah what you're going to do. You're going to be an engineer.

Speaker 1: 37:48

I don't care what you want to do.

Speaker 2: 37:49

You're going to be a doctor, yeah, what you're going to do. You're going to be engineer, I don't care what you're going to be a lawyer, right. And it drives up the net worth of the community. When you have a community of engineers, when you have a community of doctors, when you have a community of lawyers, people are making those decisions for their community and I'm not mad at that.

Speaker 2: 38:09

But I think that it's important for us to recognize, in these spaces where we might be navigating some trauma, where we are absolutely navigating some financial trauma, that we have a choice and in in making that choice, we want to recognize our, we want to draw a line in the sand and say, hey, this is what I did in the past, this is what I'm going to do, moving forward, and these are the values that maybe I had adopted growing up. Some of these I want to bring forward, but some of these I want to leave behind because they're not serving me.

Speaker 1: 38:43

Been thinking about it too, of like you know how to balance both and make sure that I'm not passing that on to the next generation. So, like for me, I had to join the military because I just like hit rock bottom and I was like where do I? I was like dead end job. I was like I couldn't even pay for school anymore. So I left. And you know, and my husband too, a similar story.

Speaker 1: 39:10

And so my stepson, you know, is talking about like well, you know, I want to continue the tradition. I was like you don't, you don't need to. That's not a tradition. You need to continue. Like we joined because you know not to knock it, because you know it definitely helped me come up and stuff, but you don't need it because I, I'm setting up all these things in place for you and your sister to make sure that you are not forced to do something that you don't want to do. Yeah, even like things like that, um, to ensure that we're not passing that on.

Speaker 1: 39:44

I am like that pivot of like from the old stuff, of not even like the financial stuff, but like the cultural and all that stuff. Um, so I'm gonna be, I want to do the be the change, um, to still keep some of our culture, but, you know, some of the stuff can be left behind. We kind of um learn some of these habits from our younger years and you know how our parents, you know, dealt with finances. It with them was like I would say, pay everything with cash, nothing on credit, no debt or anything like that, and I was that way for a while until then I started learning more about personal finance and being. The change is definitely rough and you know, like it's a big burden, but I want to make sure that, like, the kids are good and don't have to deal with as much like I did, because I'm sure they'll deal with something like you can't control everything right.

Speaker 1: 40:46

When I was reading, like your, your bio, you um part of it also mentioned kind of the work that you are doing in trying to change that mentality, um, and I kind of want to like talk a little bit about that, of what kind of work you're doing and you know what is, I guess your your tips you kind of mentioned it a little bit earlier on your advice for, like coaches or people that are like financial, personal finance educators. What are some other tips or advice that you would give like someone like me or other people that are also trying out to be here advocating and helping our community.

Speaker 2: 41:27

We are uniquely positioned, and when I say we, I mean like millennials, with the information that we've received, to really kind of like stop and look introspectively at how it is working for me, but also like what do I want to move forward into the community? And so when you talked about, you know, talking to your stepson about what his path looks like, like that to me is an example of generational healing. Right, you're discontinuing this passing down of generational financial trauma. I'll just comment to add that sometimes the behaviors that we observed and that we start implementing into our own lives, we don't get clarity on from those previous generations, right? So I think it's important for us to talk to our parents and our grandparents around. Well, why did you do this thing? Like, what's the reason for this?

Speaker 2: 42:21

And they even know like well you know your grandparent like. Know, like well you know your grandparent like. Let's just use an example as mundane as how we um prepare a meal right um. Now there's all of this conversation online about whether or not it's important to wash the meat before you cook it. Right? That's a generational thing and that's also a cultural thing yeah but, um, but that's a good example.

Speaker 2: 42:46

Or, um, you know, just in the process of preparation, if you've ever watched someone older prepare a meal and then you just say, okay, I'm gonna start doing this. I don't know why, it's just because that's the way that they told me how to do it. When we start digging into the why for some of those behaviors, we start to realize that maybe the way that we perceived it from our vantage point is not the way that they intended for us to receive it.

Speaker 2: 43:15

There are many things that I've talked to both my parents about around, how they did things, that they were just figuring it out, and I may have said, oh okay, well, I'm going to go out, I'm going to do that thing too, and I'm like, well, we didn't want you to do it that way, we just didn't know a better way. So you are saying that you recognize a better way, and I think that it's super important for you to have those conversations upward, like with the people that are older than you, and then downward right, the people that will come after you. They say, hey, there's a better way, you don't have to do it this way. So there's that. As far as your question Right and the work that I do, I like to think of it as mostly prongs Right.

Speaker 2: 43:57

A lot of my presence in this space has been based off of this desire to build a personal brand brain, and I'm proud of that. But I also recognize that because of that, I get a lot of opportunity to share things with people and people say, oh well, he's important, so I should listen to him. It's a unique responsibility, because I recognize too that five years ago, when I published Financially Irresponsible right, my vantage point on money was very different than my vantage point on money is today, but that book is published and circulated with, however, many people have purchased and read it right, and so they're internalizing the ideas that a 29-year-old version of me had talked about right In I. I talk about dave ramsey.

Speaker 2: 44:48

I praise dave ramsey and robert kiyosaki and I'm saying it's it's important to take their information and do, yeah, the whole thing with it, but I do mention them by name in the book today I wouldn't right, um, and it's just because I've evolved to a place where I can develop or where I have developed my own unique thoughts on these processes, where before I felt like I needed to lean on their expertise to deliver that. So the way that I choose to do my work, the way that I choose to communicate the importance of, ultimately, financial wellness and financial empowerment is through written content. So I do a lot of writing. I have a newsletter on Substack, I have a column with Forbes. I've written for a lot of the larger publications, so my work is out there in circulation. I do give comments and quotes to other publications who are looking for some professional perspective on things, particularly as it relates to the Black and Brown community and financial trauma, on things particularly as it relates to the black and brown community and financial trauma. I've done some audio work, so I had a podcast for a while, kind of like let that pause. I've jumped on podcasts like this one and talked about some of the thoughts and feelings that I have related to these topics, some of the learnings that I've had related to these topics.

Speaker 2: 46:04

I'm committed to continuous improvement in education, so over the course of the time that I've been in this space. I've gotten several different designations and, you know, I just continue to put myself in a position to learn, because I think that's important to a lot of people experience a measure of success, particularly when it comes to financial influencing. Maybe they say something that's really popular, or they say something that's really well known, but it's coming from them. It's like, oh, this is a viral moment for me, cool, um, I don't feel the need to continue learning, and I think that that's a mistake. The more you learn, the more you learn that there is to learn right, and so you can kind of shift your perspectives and your approaches to dealing with people based off of more information.

Speaker 2: 46:51

This integration between mental health and the mental health field and personal finance is a newer one, but I'm finding myself, coming from a financial background, becoming more interested in the mental health intervention approaches to healing. So what does that look like if somebody's coming to you and they're nervous or they're scared or they're ashamed or they're experiencing trauma or they experienced abuse? Right, I work with a client who experienced elder abuse. Maybe I work with a client who experienced financial abuse in a domestic environment and they have to start all over Some of the work that I do in the community.

Speaker 2: 47:30

Recently, partnered with my local library, I offer pro bono financial counseling for four hours a month, and so I go into the library. I just, you know, I wait for people to sign up and.

Speaker 2: 47:39

I talk to them, don't charge them anything, because for two reasons, I feel like I enjoy the coaching process, and one of the early mistakes that I made as an entrepreneur and this is just true for me, not for everybody else was that because I enjoyed coaching so much, I was giving away a lot of content for free. I was having a lot of conversations for free, and when I decided to put a price tag on it, people couldn't afford it and so I'm and so like well, I'm at this crossroads, where do I want to decrease my price and get more volume?

Speaker 2: 48:13

or do I want to look for the person that can pay me? This environment where I'm doing the pro bono work, I get to do the coaching without the burden of um generating revenue from it, so that I can focus on the revenue generating activities that are paying me, that I can focus on the revenue generating activities that are paying me, that I can make a living from Right.

Speaker 2: 48:31

And so a lot of that work is B2B work. I work with organizations, I do a lot of speaking, and so that is where the budget is. That's where I get to one so many. I get to touch a lot of people at one time and get paid for it, um, so like that's what works for me. I know people who are doing a one-on-one coaching thing and they're killing it. They're making good money, um it just it didn't work out that way for um for me.

Speaker 2: 48:56

I'm not saying that I won't, but that's how it happened, um.

Speaker 2: 49:00

and then I think the last part, and probably the most important part, um, to me internally, as far as my values go, is living like walking the walk right.

Speaker 2: 49:12

So a lot of people could jump on and talk about well, you should do this, you should have this, you should be, you know, whatever.

Speaker 2: 49:19

But I do what I talk about doing, up to and including the parts about the healing right.

Speaker 2: 49:25

A lot of the work that I do in financial therapy is intuitive, based off of interventions that I've had with individuals, without necessarily the education on mental health intervention.

Speaker 2: 49:38

Those things allow for me to have more tools at my disposal to go out and do what it is that I've been doing, to do what it is that I enjoy doing, to do what it is that I believe that doing, to do what it is that I enjoy doing, to do what it is that I believe that I was put on this planet to do. So a lot of that happens very organically. But I say that kind of tongue in cheek because there's been a lot of effort that I've put forward in terms of learning, in terms of distributing my content, in terms of getting to a place of authority and recognition where people actually care about what I have to say in terms of getting to a place of authority and recognition, where people actually care about what I have to say In terms of credentials that I carry and the ethics that bind me to those credentials, so that I'm not out here taking advantage of people or scamming them, because I know there's that in this space as well. For individuals like yourself or individuals who are just wanting to learn, I think learning the vocabulary and being able to connect that vocabulary to your experiences is

Speaker 2: 50:36

going to be important, right?

Speaker 2: 50:37

So, as you talk about you first got on, you hadn't heard about financial therapy.

Speaker 2: 50:41

You hadn't heard about trauma, or maybe you had heard about it but didn't really understand it trauma or maybe you had heard about it but didn't really understand it.

Speaker 2: 50:50

In this time that we've been together, you've been able to connect some of the experiences that you've had throughout your life to some of the definitions that I've given you, right? I think that that's huge, um, because you can then go out and share with other people. Hey, maybe you want to look into this. Maybe this explains what your experience is, or maybe your experience is aligned to my experience and we can talk about how those experiences have impacted where we show up, or how we show up financially, professionally, as an individual, as a part of a community. And you know, if one thing I say on somebody's podcast or one thing I write on, you know, any publication changes somebody, changes one person's life, that's a win for me. I've been fortunate to have access to large audiences and so I think lots of people's lives have been changed by what I put out there, and I think that's really that is the work and that's the part of the work that I'm the most proud of.

Speaker 1: 51:53

How can people reach you and work with you or if they want to seek some help through you?

Speaker 2: 52:01

Anybody who's interested in working with me can reach out to me via my website or social media. Everything is directed at my name. So that's rockhimsabricom is my website. All of my social media is at rockhimsabri, my sub stack is rockhimsabrisubstackcom. And if you want to reach out and just ask the question like what does it look like to work with you, that's fine.

Speaker 2: 52:25

I can tell you working with me is shifting. The way that I have that organized. I am moving away from one-on-one, outside of the pro bono environment that I talked about, into a one-to-many, so that can look like group coaching, that can look like speaking events, speaking engagements. Rather, if you work at an organization that has an ERG, a lot of times those ERGs have budgets, so you can certainly connect me with the ERG lead and I can come in and speak to the organization, whether that be virtually or in person, based off of their budget. But that's how I'm delivering a lot of the work now. From a financial therapy perspective, I'm still kind of doing one-on-one stuff, but I find that my lane is really in train-the-trainer environment.

Speaker 2: 53:17

So working with individuals who work with individuals. So if you are a financial educator, a financial coach, financial therapist, mental health therapist, financial planner, and you're working with clients and you want that trauma-informed, culturally-informed lens.

Speaker 2: 53:32

That's more so what I'm offering through the financial therapy lens. But occasionally, if it's worth it to me or if I believe in that interaction, I work with an individual one-on-one to talk through what it is that they might be experiencing and make suggestions that they feel empowered to change their circumstances. I'm going to quote one of my mentors and say I am the lighthouse, not a rescue boat. So it's not my job to save you, but it's my job to empower you to save yourself.

Speaker 1: 54:06

I'll definitely have all of your information linked in the description or the show notes. That's pretty much it for this episode. Yeah, thank you so much for coming and I will see everyone in the next episode. Bye.